Posts by The Leological One

29

left out in the cold

by donald in

jw
friends

hello im new to this...my wife and i are still baptized....but weve not gone to meetings regulary...for some time now...even though we still go to the memorial.....and we are wondering if to go back.....here without being too specfic is our story.

i was rasied in the truth...she was not...she got baptized...about 3 years after we were married..i was made a m.s.

in 1990...but becuse of personal reasons i stepped down shortly after..i conecentrated on raiseing my family..and had to work 2 jobs to support them......3 children.....then a few years later my wife left me for some one else...and then i got very sick...and was told my kidney was failing....a elder came to my house and told me that if there was anything i neede that all i had to do was ask...well...a few weeks later i asked this elder...if he could get a couple of young brothers to hep me get rid off some boxes of stuff my wufe had left behind..because i could not lift them...he told me in a reproachful tone...get your family to help you...this after he had told me weeks before...to ask him for help........i thought at the time its no big deal....but then something else happen to call into question all about jw.

The Leological One

I'm so sorry your going through all of this. Once they smell weakness (sickness) it's all over. Remember? We're taught not to give food , shelter, love, charity, like Jesus, but Watchtowers and awake's. My mom has actually been reproved for helping sick or spiritually weak ones who were'nt making it to meetings, or cooking dinners for the children of sick df'd ones. If it appears to them that you are too compassionate.... Well, you just don't have the strength to sell magazines and too much compassion to watch the goats burn at armaggedon. Not good qualities in a JW. Jesus thought they were great though!

I can't believe they actually got onto your mother for trying to help sick people or the others out, regardless of whether they were making it to meetings. I'm not surprised they were this way towards her helping DF'd people or their kids although that's equally pathetic. I totally agree with you and can't see anywhere how Jesus would fit into the society's twisted thinking.

Sorry to hear your mother got reproved for it; I see that as her suffering persecution for righteousness' sake and am glad to hear she was trying! In my mind, this just goes further in proving that there are definitely some decent people within the org and that it's rather the org's dumb policies that are the real problem.

63

Ok so you left the idea of God - what would it take to come back?

by Qcmbr in

one point that has played many times on my mind (and is fairly central to my world view) is that if god exists its up to him to prove it.

what would it take for you to accept god?

starters for ten: .

The Leological One

I have my own experiences as well as understanding of the Bible, and I'm also very familiar with numerous skeptic and apologist sites and books. After years of researching things, I am undoubtabely a Christian, though I have learned more about humility and am unfortunately not the greatest example of what I believe in. Anyway, I believe it will always take faith to believe in God and that the "doubting Thomas" scenario was a very unique experience.

That said, some things may occur that will cause something to click in someone to recall certain passages of scripture that might possibly cause that person to look into things a little more, though I feel it would have to be something fairly major that seems clearly dealt with in the Bible, i.e. not something such as some very vague prophecy as the WT might use for some of their doctrines.

32

AN EXCUSE TO HATE?

by Terry in

i ask this question rather seriously.

isn't religion actually an excuse to hate?

you quickly learn us vs them and who is who.

The Leological One

You will quickly answer that secularism is no different; humanism has no better track record to offer; atheists are as bloodthirsty as the rest. Aha! You are right. And that is the VERY POINT I wish to make.
Believers are no better at all. They just talk a prettier talk while walking the same walk as everybody else.
No?

IMHO, this all depends on the individuals involved. As I've been talking with my wife about, the body of Christ is not just a group of people somewhere, like one organization as the WT is structured, but are individuals around the world who collectively make up the church. I strongly feel that not everyone known as Christians actually are what I perceive as being Christian.

Anyway, I agree with the idea that people are people; I've known some awesome Christians, Muslims, and atheists alike, and I know better than to think that, as a Christian, I'm better than someone else who is a part of another religion or is an atheist. Just on net forums alone, I can think of some of the best and worst threads and posts (IMO, of course), showing great care or total disregard for others, belonging to both atheists and people of various religions alike.

18

Where did the year "1914" come from???

by Donkey Lipz in

jw
friends

.

i was in the "truth" for 5 or 6 years...i asked many pioneers,elders, other brothers and sisters...all of them really confused...one elder told me it had sumthing to do with one of daniel's prophecy's??.

can someone explain to me fully about the "1914" situation??

The Leological One

Other Christians were sure the date was false, simply because of Christ?s teachings. However, an invisible presence was, and is, a difficult thing for Christians to disprove.

Hi Jaffa! Thanks for all the info. I would also agree to say Jesus' invisible presence is hard to 100% refute, but in this case there is so much of an overwhelming tide going against the prophecy being true, i.e. all the other failed prophecies (Why would this one -- that one that's impossible to prove happened or didn't happen be the only correct one?), the scriptures where Jesus said not to be fooled by any man that says Jesus is in various places or in a "secret chamber" (like nobody can see him = invisible), the rest of what was supposed to happen in 1914 did not occur, etc., that the onus should be on the WT to prove it is true.

This next part also helps promote the idea that the 1914 date is not prophetic but was certainly hoped for as being that way by the early WT (and apparently another group or two).

By the mid 1930s the official dates for key events were moved up as follows:
Start of last days ~~1799~~ 1914
Christ?s presence ~~1874~~ 1914
Christ?s kingdom?s active rule ~~1878~~ 1914
Beginning of resurrection ~~1878~~ 1918

I can't knock only the WT for having false predictions and prophecies, but I do know the Bible says not to fear a false prophet, so I stopped listening to a couple Christian groups that predicted (if I remember correctly) October of '89 (by various calculations, as well) as being the time of the rapture, for instance. I would do the same if I had previously believed the WT's predictions/prophecies.

98

"I prayed for you"

by Scully in

if you aren't a "believer", does it bother you when someone says "i'll pray for you" or "i prayed for you"?.

one of my colleagues is an incredibly kind and sweet person, and i know she says it because she believes she's doing something good on my behalf.

i always say "thank you for thinking of me", because i know that's the spirit she's intending to convey and that she cares about the situation i'm in vis-a-vis my jw relatives, but she knows i no longer believe in god (at least not in the sense that she does) - i wonder does she think that a few prayers are going to change my mind?

The Leological One

Hi Sirona,

Leonard,
Interesting experiences. Has it encouraged you to pray?
I'm of the opinion that the mind can do a lot - therefore prayer works primarily in ones own mind. I do believe in God as the ALL, but that God is part of us and we just need to touch that part of us to be in touch with God.
Sirona

It had definitely encouraged me to pray, though I felt like it was the prayers of others that helped me -- even when I wasn't even aware the prayers for me regarding the acid trip problem were being done until after I called my mother later the same day to tell her I had been healed.

I feel like prayers I've said for others have had an impact, though I can't say every prayer has. I had a friend that was intensely anti-Christian/anti-God that I prayed for over time that I eventually ended up praying the prayer of salvation and another friend who was an ex-JW in the same boat that later totally changed around.

I agree with you that having a certain mindset can make a heck of a difference in about anybody's life, and it's possible that feeling God is with someone can help cause that person to act differently in a way that might bring about certain actions that would work out well for him/her. I also believe in the power of prayer, itself. I don't believe in praying in front of a person in a way that seems to be saying, "Look at me; I'm the holy person here," or "You're no good and need someone else to pray for you." I believe that humility is extremely important in prayer.

In common with what JW's apparently believe, I've often thought of "the prayers of a righteous man does much," and being so imperfect, there've been a lot of times I haven't had faith in my own prayers, and after going through some majorly bad things over a several year period of time, it started getting tougher to pray with confidence. I started praying again for my wife (even when she was just my friend -- like when I first started posting here) to see the light about the "Truth." She's now started really looking into things and even has her own moniker here, though things have been really tough for her, not knowing what to trust at times, but she's searching. I know this type of thing as well as most others can happen without prayer, but I still have to feel God is helping -- not because I am a good man (I have MANY problems and don't go to church or hardly pray recently, etc.) but because He cares about her and even cares about me -- a person who definitely knows he is not "worthy" of anything.

98

"I prayed for you"

by Scully in

if you aren't a "believer", does it bother you when someone says "i'll pray for you" or "i prayed for you"?.

one of my colleagues is an incredibly kind and sweet person, and i know she says it because she believes she's doing something good on my behalf.

i always say "thank you for thinking of me", because i know that's the spirit she's intending to convey and that she cares about the situation i'm in vis-a-vis my jw relatives, but she knows i no longer believe in god (at least not in the sense that she does) - i wonder does she think that a few prayers are going to change my mind?

The Leological One

One thing I didn't think to mention earlier is that I DO believe in the power of prayer.

There have been two times in my life where I received prayer and can state without flinching in the least that I believe fully the prayers were heard and answered.

1) When I was 18, I was still partying and into doing acid. My step-brother committed suicide over problems he was experiencing with acid flashbacks when I was 12. I thought I'd never end up in the same boat, but I was stupid enough to get into acid later on, and the last hit I took resulted in me being "stuck" on that trip for 3 months; I was highly suicidal, felt like I was on speed 24/7, was still having some visuals, and was extremely paranoid to the point of chasing a car with a ball bat because I thought the people inside were spying on me. One day my mother called a large church for prayer (please keep in mind I'm no fan of this big church to this day). On my way home from school that day, I felt the problem removed and felt totally normal again, and this caused me to really start seeking after God, reading the Bible, wanting to do everything I could to thank Him.

2) I had terrible exema on my fingers for about 2 years and was told the problem would never go away. I put medication on the fingers, but they still looked like they were puffed up about half-again as thick as normal and looked like I had a bad case of poison ivy bumps that would later dry up and leave really deep cracks in my fingers that was really frustrating since I was a guitarist and was only about 20 and embarrasing. One of my Christian friends was wanting to pray for me, and I just said I didn't believe in praying for it any more and that it wouldn't be healed, but then he prayed and "commanded" a miracle healing (which I didn't agree with how he prayed and was actually a little worried about it). Within the next couple days, the problem was fully gone.

I know I saw the thread about people playing roles, etc., and I'm sure some people will think this is all bs or just coincidence. I can only say I have no reason to lie and largely believe in God due to those and things I've seen happen for others I know of.

Regardless of each person's beliefs, peace to all.

Leonard

70

Do You Know Of Malcontent ExJWs That Bitch About Life Because.....?

by minimus in

jw
friends

they were jws and blame everything on their jw past???

i know of people that never tried to get ahead or prosper themselves because they were witnesses.

never bought a house or a brand new car because they would rather rent and drive around in a jalopy that would break down.

The Leological One

They would feel much better about themselves if they used their knowledge of the cult to help other people get out of it and warn others about the dangers of it.

As one who has never been a Witness, I can't really speak with too much conviction concerning exactly how most ex-JW's feel about their past. I somewhat feel that whether people ever were JW's or not, many people don't experience a lot of the things in their lives that they would've liked to. The WT might be a very legitimate source of blame in that it's very likely many people may have led a very different lifestyle that may or may not have been better, while others may be somewhat different in that they might blame the WT for things of their own doing that not even the WT had anything or very little to do with.

I think that people should find a way at some point to do what they can do now and play catch-up, if possible. I feel there is a genuine need to be upset with a situation that may have cost a person a lot over an extended amount of time, but I think if people are able to keep advancing in their own lives away from the org, they will be a lot happier as further time goes by.

98

"I prayed for you"

by Scully in

if you aren't a "believer", does it bother you when someone says "i'll pray for you" or "i prayed for you"?.

one of my colleagues is an incredibly kind and sweet person, and i know she says it because she believes she's doing something good on my behalf.

i always say "thank you for thinking of me", because i know that's the spirit she's intending to convey and that she cares about the situation i'm in vis-a-vis my jw relatives, but she knows i no longer believe in god (at least not in the sense that she does) - i wonder does she think that a few prayers are going to change my mind?

The Leological One

As a Christian, I usually will only say "I'm praying for ___" to someone who is seeming to ask for prayer or someone I'm familiar with as being a fellow Christian.

So, if someone prays for me to become a believer, why am I still an atheist?

Free will.

24

Thought from tonight's meeting

by jula71 in

just a thought from tonight's bible reading that kinda hit in a funny way.

in all my years i've never heard this scripture used like this.

*** rbi8 1 samuel 21:12-13 ***

The Leological One

Adelmaal,

It boggles my mind to think that some people are foolish enough to think that just because somebody who was a follower of God did something in the Bible that makes it acceptable behaviour. Those people were imperfect just as are we. Why should the fact that they did something wrong be justified or twisted to make it seem right?

Exactly.

20

Opposer Bragging Time: How People Have You Saved From JW?

by Check_Your_Premises in

i have been an opposer for 3 months now, i have already taken out a bible study by providing info by proxy.. i think i will put a notch in my bible!.

what methods have you used?

how many people have you helped leave?

The Leological One

I'm still working on helping my wife. There was also a girl in my class who either said she was a JW or her family was, but the way she was stating my wife was only DF'd because she couldn't live up to "their rules" leads me to believe she's a JW, herself. I wrote a letter in reply to hers explaining my feelings regarding my wife's DF'ing, the WT's obvious problems with interpreting the Bible, laying out numerous false prophecies and setting itself up as really the god of the org via their own literature that must be obeyed as if it was the voice of God rather than who's truly coming up with all their rules and changes. I explained Jesus said nobody comes to the Father but through him and asked where it mentions the org's involvement in that process, etc... Don't know if she read the full letter, but I'm hoping so!

Also, back in about '91, a JW man (I think around 50 yoa) came to my house 3 times to talk about religion. All I knew of the WT back then was they didn't believe in a hell and that Jesus was "a god." I don't know if this impressed him at all, but I compared Genesis 1 with John 1 and read numerous verses explaining hell and how the beast and false prophet (obviously human) were still shown as being in the lake of fire 1,000 years after being thrown in it at the time the devil himself is thrown into it, and it states they will be tormented day and night eternally, etc... By the end of the 3rd visit, the man left looking very down and almost looked confused. I was worrying about him, but if it wasn't him really thinking hard about what I said, maybe he was just really disappointed he couldn't get a kid like me back then into the org. I've always wondered what he was thinking when he left that last time, and he seemed like a genuinely good guy.